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Wait, 'Frottage is normal sexual activity'? By definition? It stops being frottage if it gets weird, then? --Oolong 13:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The term 'frottage' (borrowed from French "rubbing" frottage and "to rub" frotter) can have several distinct meanings. See the disambiguation at the head of the article. Psychiatry no longer uses the term 'frottage' for the sexual disorder, and it is more correct to use the term 'frotteurism'. (The term 'frottage' still lingers in some law books and so on to refer to frotteurism.) Frotteurism is a disorder because it is nonconsensual (similar to but less serious than rape) and thus a paraphilia. By contrast, term 'frottage' gained wide popular usage to refer to normal sexual (kinky!) "grinding" without vaginal or anal penetration. This kind of consensual sexual rubbing is normal. Haldrik 00:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Bloody hell Haldrik! 18:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

'Frottage enthusiasts in entertainment include Pierre Bouvier of Canadian emo rock band Simple Plan. Their biggest hit, "Untitled (How Could This Happen To Me)" is said to have been about an incident during which Bouvier was caught frotting with a bandmate by his mother.' -Um, no! That song is about drunk driving and it's been confirmed many a time. I'm deleting this sentence from the article if that's alright Baberlp 19:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Merge with Outercourse?[edit]

Is there any reason why frottage is seperate from outercourse? --Philo 18:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

None but dont delete any of the content rather simply move it over and maintain a redirect: I was lead here from Bonobo and frot and frottage is an important part of Bonobo sexual behaviour (not to mention "pan (formerly "homo") sapiens"). Mattjs 16:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It might be easier to merge the content of Outercourse into Frottage than the other way around. I think there are too many pages on subjects that are nearly the same, with none of the pages quite hitting the intended mark. Merging seems a really good idea, but I'd hate to lose any content. Human sexuality (especially safe-sex) deserves as good a treatment as any other social or medical subject. I'll put a merge tag onto Outercourse and something into the discussion page directing people here. --Simon Speed 23:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Oppose merge. This term is not in common use in the United States. Most people know what outercourse is here, few would know what frottage was. Could we merge the content of Frottage to Outercourse? Or is there some phrase at which we could create a new article and merge both? Joie de Vivre 00:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

3 articles: Frottage, Outercourse and Mutual masturbation (anybody know any more?) cover pretty much the same material. Good stuff, different treatments of the same thing (Frottage is also a section in Mutual Masturbation), but not complete in themselves. All 3 need to be merged. If Outercourse is the main term in US English then that should be the main title of the article. --Simon Speed 23:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Outercourse is not used in Australia. Mutual masturbation is. Why if "Outercourse"" is the main term in US English should all other uses be merged to that one? WP is US-centric enough without subsuming all other cultural differences into US articles. Oppose Merge Gillyweed 23:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Could the 3 articles be merged into 1 entitled Non-penetrative sex? The term doesn't get used that much, I think because its rather formal, but I've seen it in American English (something to do with a Californian law) and quite a lot in British English. If editors don't want merges what should we do instead? There is a huge amount of overlap in material covered and an even bigger overlap in what should be covered on any one of these pages. --Simon Speed 18:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Merge proposal[edit]

It is my understanding that the three terms have slightly different meanings. My definitions are written from a United States perspective, I'd be interested to hear from Gillyweed and others what the words mean in the UK, Australia, and elsewhere. In the US...

  • Mutual masturbation almost always means "rubbing someone else's unclothed genitals with your hand(s), while they rub yours". Mutual masturbation usually does not include dry-humping, and it never includes oral sex or genital-genital rubbing.
  • Outercourse usually means "getting yourself and someone else off without penetration or exchange of body fluids". Outercourse can involve rubbing your genitals anywhere on someone else's body, except on their genitals. Some definitions of outercourse include oral sex, some do not. Outercourse generally does not include genital-genital rubbing, it would only include it if a barrier method is used. The word "outercourse" is typically usually used in the context of enjoying sex while avoiding the swapping of bodily fluids, in an attempt to avoid STDs and pregnancy. See Joycelyn Elders.
  • Frottage is a word that is not used in the US. From reading the article, frottage seems to include all of the activity of "outercourse", but frottage can also include genital-genital rubbing such as tribadism or frot (words also not used in the US).

(I'll also throw in the phrase Dry-humping, which incidentally redirects to Frottage): I don't know if this term is used outside the US, but it almost always means rubbing your genitals against someone else's genitals while both people are clothed.

I do support a merge of the three articles, because they are so similar. Perhaps, as Simon Speed said, we can merge at non-penetrative sex. This one seems to be the least geographically-specific, if only because it's so formal that no one uses it. However, I think we should include a section for each term, describing each term's specific meaning. Joie de Vivre 21:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I found another one: Sumata, a Japanese term. Joie de Vivre 16:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I Think that's relatively specific - penis to hands, thighs and labia. It's got a link from "see also" in the Frottage article but isn't mentioned under Outercourse or Mutual masturbation.--Simon Speed 21:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I only brought it up because you asked if anyone knew of "any more" -- I took that to mean "any more related or similar terms that could possibly be considered in the merge". I'm still not sure what to do here. Joie de Vivre 18:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK I cobbled the pages together to make non-penetrative sex and did a bit of editing. A picture has yet to be allowed. Have a look and change stuff.--Simon Speed 22:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]